More 747 Crash Shots

"someassemblyrequired" (someassemblyrequired) 11/08/2018 at 14:16 • Filed to: Just testing the ABS

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This overhead one is crazy - check out the skidmarks. Apparently runway was wet, and conditions were windy at the time. That runway has a pretty significant downslope too. Apparently was cooking along at 70+ knots at the end of the runway.

More photos here:

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haveacarortwoorthree2 > someassemblyrequired 11/08/2018 at 14:25

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Tower: Sky L ease 747, you are cleared to land on r unway 5

Co-pilot: Bet you can’t land on the short runway with a tailwind.

Pilot: Hold my beer.

Pilot: Tower, request permission to land on Runway 14.

Tower: Sky L ease 747, runway 14 is the short runway and you would have a tailwind.

Pilot: Tower, the c o-pilot is holding my beer.

Tower: Sky Lease 747, you are cleared to land on runway 14.

WilliamsSW > someassemblyrequired 11/08/2018 at 14:28

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Hmm, a tailwind component is a big deal, if it’s true.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > someassemblyrequired 11/08/2018 at 14:29

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I still don’t understand how knots is a unit of speed. Distance sure, but speed? That’s like says “I was going over 70 miles when I missed the turn and understeered into a ditch.” Shouldn’t it be knots per hour or something? 

WilliamsSW > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 11/08/2018 at 14:33

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No - a ‘knot’ is a nautical mile *per hour*.  It’s a unit of speed, not distance.  You can convert it to mph by multiplying by 1.15 - 70kts x 1.15 = 80.5 MPH.

TheRealBicycleBuck > haveacarortwoorthree2 11/08/2018 at 14:34

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This is 17R. That first taxiway is Charlie. Over the weekend, the instructors were competing to see who could land 17R and exit at Charlie. At least one of them was successful.

facw > someassemblyrequired 11/08/2018 at 14:34

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Hmm, yeah given that they went ~8600 ft, they probably would have done better with the 10 500 ft runway instead of the 7700 ft one, unless there were huge crosswinds. Given westerly wind, it seems like 23 would still have been a good choice with 32 as an option if the wind was really more from the NW.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > WilliamsSW 11/08/2018 at 14:35

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Well why didn’t you just say that! 

WilliamsSW > TheRealBicycleBuck 11/08/2018 at 14:35

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Now let’s see them try that with a tailwind.  :)

WilliamsSW > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 11/08/2018 at 14:36

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I just did! :)  (I’m not the OP)

someassemblyrequired > WilliamsSW 11/08/2018 at 14:37

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Weather there is unpredictable at the best of times, but the runway selection seems odd, given that the longer runway is almost 10,500ft and winds were from the southwest, which would make the longer runway a better choice .

ILS is on the longer runway too, not sure what the thought process was in runway selection - ops there really don’t start up until 0530, so it’s not like there would have been a wait for the longer runway .

WilliamsSW > someassemblyrequired 11/08/2018 at 14:40

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Winds were from the southwest? So, the longer runway was more or less directly into the wind?

OK - now - without looking into it, I will bet you $100 that I can tell you where those lobsters were at.

They were on the east or southeast part of the airport.  

someassemblyrequired > facw 11/08/2018 at 14:42

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Yeah I pulled the weather data from the station at the airport, I don’t really understand why you wouldn’t land to the south east with winds from the southwest at 13 knots.  S eems like a much better option to have a headwind component and a longer runway.

facw > TheRealBicycleBuck 11/08/2018 at 14:42

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I was always impressed with how quickly the 152s I was flying could slow down. I don’t think I would have attempted that though. Also at my airport landing right at the start of the runway would be a long drive, so we normally touched down closer to middle:

(flying club is the hangar at middle left with the 124 marker next to it, so normally we wanted to exit at one of the top two taxi ways in the picture, both for convenience, and to avoid any traffic taxiing to 32 for takeoff).

someassemblyrequired > WilliamsSW 11/08/2018 at 14:45

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You’d think, but no, cargo ramp is about halfway down the longer runway.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > haveacarortwoorthree2 11/08/2018 at 14:47

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Sounds like a transcript of an AFP95 video.

WilliamsSW > someassemblyrequired 11/08/2018 at 14:47

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Well there goes my theory.  God knows I’ve seen plenty of pilots negotiate for suboptimal runways in order to reduce taxi distance (I may or may not have done that a few times myself - but *never* taking a tailwind in order to do it).

facw > someassemblyrequired 11/08/2018 at 14:47

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The cargo facility also appears to be at the SW corner of the airport, so it would have been a much shorter taxi as well.

someassemblyrequired > facw 11/08/2018 at 14:54

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Yes it’s about midway down the longer runway.

TheRealBicycleBuck > facw 11/08/2018 at 14:55

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My fl ig ht school is right in the middle of the airport (circled in red). My instructor asks me to land at the 1k marks so that I can use the VASI to maintain the correct glide slope. On the la st landing of the weekend, tower directed us to 17L, the tiny runway that looks more like a taxiway. It was my first landing there and i’m proud to say I did it without any direction from my instructor!

someassemblyrequired > WilliamsSW 11/08/2018 at 15:07

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Yeah, it’s easy to second guess - I mean there’s a slim chance there was some sort of issue and only their wits and airmanship saved the day.

But I’d say fatigue or incompetence appear to be the most likely culprit.

WilliamsSW > someassemblyrequired 11/08/2018 at 15:21

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Yeah - but you never know. I saw numerous people comment right after the Lion Air crash that “well the plane was brand new so there’s no way that was the cause”...

Certainly there will be a focus on the wind conditions and runway choice in the investigation.

someassemblyrequired > WilliamsSW 11/08/2018 at 15:43

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Yeah the Lion Air thing is scary. I knew after I saw the speed/altitude plots that it was some sort of trim problem, which unfortunately occurred close to the ground . I suspect the pilots were frantically trying to fly the airplane and sort out what was happening but the AD makes it sound like the error might only be displayed on one side of the cockpit, and in a less than intuitive way. I’m surprised the automatic trim on the MAX doesn’t disengage when the inputs go outside a certain envelope, especially when most 737's aren’t equipped with the system.

For Sweden > haveacarortwoorthree2 11/08/2018 at 15:51

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This is likely accurate

WilliamsSW > someassemblyrequired 11/08/2018 at 18:53

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I got the impression that it was a faulty AOA sensor (or software?) causing the stick shaker to lower the nose, but not really sure - and I’m not an airline pilot anyways.

What irritates me about Lion Air is that the airline has said that aircraft was giving erroneous airspeed readings for 3 days prior to the accident, and something (sensor IIRC) was replaced, but the erroneous readouts continued after that.  Ummm, maybe you should have grounded it and called Boeing - and left them on the hook for lost revenue???

someassemblyrequired > WilliamsSW 11/08/2018 at 20:38

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Yeah the AD has erroneous airspeed indications as a symptom. I don’t know whether an experienced mechanic would naturally connect that to the AOA sensor, but Lion Air definitely has maintenance issues. I’m just not sure if they were a factor in this case. I think the cause might narrow to a software issue or a warning message issue in the UI.   Will be an interesting report.

WilliamsSW > someassemblyrequired 11/08/2018 at 20:45

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Yeah - I think there may be a lot to unpack there, from what I’ve read.

One thing I’m too lazy to look up now - I hope the US NTSB is involved, and Indonesia isn’t running this themselves.  The NTSB tries to get in whenever Boeing is involved, in part because many countries don’t have the capability (or political will) to do a thorough investigation.  

someassemblyrequired > WilliamsSW 11/08/2018 at 21:17

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I know Boeing always sends a rep if their airplane is involved, and the NTSB generally offers their assistance (the magnitude of the assistance is dependent on the capabilities of local investigators).